Distance between Barracks and the Submarine dock

There seems to be a lot of questions about the location of the submarine dock, especially with respect to the location of the barracks.  Many viewers are under the impression that the submarine dock is very close to the barracks.  This may very well be correct, but TheLOSTmap has to show locations where our methods of locating items would place it.
TheLOSTmap shows the dock to be a few miles away from the barracks.  Although TheLOSTmap does show a mountain between the barracks and the dock, we believe that there is either a pass through this mountain, or more likely, this mountain has been destroyed/removed.  Either way, we believe there is a well-traveled path between the barracks and the dock without any major climbing. It’s probably a 60 ft gradual drop from the barracks to the dock.

We are constantly questioned about this so we decided to address this question on this blog. It’s simply easier to answer this question once, and then just reference it.

We are not trying to convince anyone that our locations are proper, they very well may not be. We are just to defend why we believe the distance between these two locations may be further than the show implies at times.

There are four items that are very important to keep in consideration when discussing the merits/demerits of placing the submarine dock (dock) and barracks at the distance we did.

A.                 The view of the barracks in episode 03x01 “The tale of Two Cities”. This view clearly shows the barracks to be landlocked.
B.                 The cabling map Sayid uncovered in episode 03x12 “Par Avion”. The cabling map, as well as the map supplied in the Dharma Initiative Initiation Kit (Blu Ray extra), shows that the barracks are completely surrounded by sonic barriers, placed approx. 20 ft apart.  These maps do not show the dock within the sonic barrier.
C.                 The view of the submarine leaving dock in episode 05x15 “Follow the Leader”. This view clearly shows the submarine leaving the dock and traveling into the open ocean. Therefore the dock must be located on the coast.
D.                 There is a small boathouse seen in episode 04x04, “Eggtown”, we believe this be outside of the sonic barrier but fairly close to the barracks. We believe the boathouse lies on a small lake and may have a small dock, but this boat house/dock is not the same as the submarine dock.  The position of the boathouse has little to do with the distance between the barracks and the submarine dock.

The following are various scenes that involve both the submarine dock and the barracks. We also included links to  relevant screen shots for every scene.  If anyone can think of other substantial scenes that are not included, please let us know. After each scene, we provide an explanation of why we believe the dock and barracks are not in very close proximity.  A conclusion follows at the end.

1.  One of Us 03x16

Juliet arrives at the dock. Ben meets Dr. Burke (Juliet) at the submarine dock. They travel to the barracks off camera.

Explanation: There really is no explanation required, as the audience does not get the impression either way as to the relation between the dock and the barracks.

2.  The Man From Tallahassee 03x12

Kate, Sayid, Locke, Mikhail and Rousseau travel from the Flame to barracks in order to rescue Jack.  As they are traveling toward the barracks, they must travel over the sonic barrier by using a tree branch. Mikhail is left for dead at the sonic barrier. Rousseau leaves the group once they have view of the barracks.   Locke captures Ben within his barrack while Sayid and Kate are captured as they try to infiltrate the barracks.  Locke has Ben direct Alex to bring Sayid’s satchel of C-4 back to him. After Alex brings the satchel back, Locke instructs Ben to have Alex direct him towards the submarine dock.  Alex does this. One scene we see Alex and Locke leaving the Barracks. The next scene we see them approaching the submarine dock.  At the submarine dock we see that Rousseau has followed them in secret.   We have to assume that off camera Alex powers down the sonic barrier so that Locke and her can pass, as well as Rousseau, although Rousseau must have done it in secret.   Locke blows up the submarine just as Jack and Juliet were preparing to use it to leave the island.

Explanation:  The travel to the dock from the barracks does not show Locke and Alex passing the sonic barrier. Because this scene is not shown, it is possible that the rest of the travel is not shown simply for time/editing purposes.

3The Man Behind the Curtain 03x20

Ben, as a child, enters the island via a submarine with his father. They meet Horace Goodspeed at the submarine dock. There are Dharma vans at the base of the dock. These vans are ostensibly used to transfer people from the dock to the barracks for initiation.   We do not see the travel of people at the dock to the barracks.

Explanation: Although we do not see or get any implication of the travel between the dock and the barracks, the fact that Dharma vans are there implies the vans are used to ferry people from the dock to the barracks. This suggests a substantial distance between the dock and the barracks.  

4.  Namaste 05x09

Ben, Frank, and Sun are on the Hydra beach where Ben uncovers three (3) hidden outriggers.  Although Sun asks Frank to come along to the main island, Frank responds that as captain of Ajar 316 he has a duty to his passengers.  Ben tells Frank “There’s a small dock about a ½ mile due south, directly across the water. It leads directly to a town where I used to live.  There are resources there…” Ben is knocked unconscious by Sun with an oar. It is daylight.

Off camera (Assumption)- Sun and Frank carry Ben to Hydra’s infirmary. Frank attends to his passenger’s needs as captain. When Frank is satisfied he has fulfilled his immediate duties, he and Sun travel to the Main Island.  It may be dark when they leave Hydra.

On camera- It is dark when Sun and Frank arrive at the Main island’ submarine dock via an outrigger.  Sun and Frank hear rustling in the brush at the dock that appears to be the smoke monster. The next scene they are at the barracks.

Explanation:  The travel to the barracks from the dock does not show Sun and Frank passing the sonic barrier. Because this scene is not shown, it is possible that the rest of the travel is not shown simply for time/editing purposes.

5 Dead is Dead 05x12

Locke and Ben uncover one of two remaining outriggers at Hydra. After Ben kills Ceaser they travel to the main island via the outrigger (Daylight). They arrive at the submarine dock and moor directly in front of the outrigger Sun and Frank had previously used. Locke and Ben arrive at the dock in daylight and reach the barracks at nightime.

Explanation:  Locke and Ben leave the dock for the barracks in daylight and arrive at the barracks at night, suggesting a substantial travel time between the dock and the barracks.

6.  Follow the Leader 05x15

Hurley gets food from the barracks kitchen to further his, Miles, and Jin's  escape the Barracks to the beach camp. They are followed and stopped by Dr. Chang close to the barracks.  Questioned by Dr. Chang they admit they are from the future and convince Dr. Chang the island must be evacuated.  Dr. Chang returns to the barracks to start the evacuation. The people from the barracks then begin their evacuation toward the submarine dock. Hurley, Miles, and Jin spy people arriving at the dock through binoculars.  Dharma vans are used to transport people with luggage from the barracks to the dock.  Sawyer and Juliet are also transported to the dock via a jeep, although they do not have any luggage.  The submarine leaves the dock into the open ocean.  This means the dock is on the coast.

Explanation: There has to be substantial amount of time between Dr. Change leaving Hurley, Miles, and Jin and going back toward the barracks to announce the evacuation and people arriving at the submarine dock to leave the island.  This amount of time would explain how Hurley, Miles and Jin were able to leave the immediacy of the barracks and reach the vicinity of the dock and view the dock through thru binoculars (even then they were not that close). Also, people were ferried from the barracks to the dock via Dharma vans, which would suggest a substantial distance, although they had luggage.

7.  What Kate Does 06x03

Kate leaves the Temple in pursuit of Sawyer. Kate finds Sawyer at his barrack as he takes up a floorboard to uncover a ring he was going to use to propose to Juliet. Kate follows Sawyer to the dock, where Sawyer throws the ring into the ocean. Kate points with her finger and asks, “That was your house, right, with Juliet?Sawyer answers yes.  Sawyer tells Kate she could probably make it back to the Temple by nightfall. Instead, Kate follows Sawyer back to the barracks and fills up her canteen. They don’t speak. Jack and Hurley see Kate on their way to the Lighthouse later the same day.

Explanation: The explanation of  Kate pointing and making the remark “That was your house, right, with Juliet?” probably has more to do with Kate pointing in the general direction of the barracks then Kate pointing at a specific barrack.    This may be the reason why viewers assume that the barracks are very close to the dock.
The reason we think that Kate would point (she did point in a particular direction) and make her comment is in the context of her and Sawyers trip. We have to take their part of the whole episode in context.  We have to realize that Kate just followed Sawyer from his barrack to the dock.   It is likely that Kate was directing her attention the barracks they had left when she pointed and made her remark “That was your house, right,  with Juliet?” rather than pointing at Sawyer's specific barrack and asking the question.  There is dense jungle between the dock and the barracks, so it would be impossible for Kate to point at a specific barrack, but rather in the general direction of the barracks.

Even if the barracks were adjacent to the docks, if would have been impossible for Kate to point to a specific barrack due to the dense jungle surrounding the dock.  Viewers have seen plenty of footage of the dock. Not once has their been a scene of the dock which even suggested a view of the barracks.  It seems unlikely that Kate could have been pointing to Sawyer's barrack.

 You also have to take into consideration that we never did see them pass the sonic barriers  traveling either to or from the dock, so that would imply that we didn’t see the whole travel, so it may be a combination of time/editing and the context of Kate's remark.

As we said, these are explanations based on various scenes involving both the dock and the barracks.  These explanations are of why we believe the barracks and the dock are not adjacent to each other. There are other  scenes and logic (very unlikely to have an underground cavern system below the barracks if you are at sea level) which also support this position.

We are not trying to imply that the barracks and the dock locations are exact, we are only trying to justify the distance we place between them.


Resolving "Temple Map"


The following occurs during episode Meet Kevin Johnson, 04x08.

Ben's Barrack- Ben is concerned with the immanent danger that the freighter people pose to his daughter.
Ben persuades Alex to go to a location he calls "the temple" with Karl and Danielle. Ben tells Alex the rest of the Others are already at the sanctuary of the temple. He provides Alex, Rousseau, and Karl with a map to travel from the barracks to the temple.
Ben tells Alex she is in danger because the people who are coming to the Island will use her as a pawn in an attempt influence Ben.He assures Alex that her mother ( Rousseau) will protect her and Karl throughout their trip to the temple. Karl and Rousseau agree with Ben that  they should go to the temple.

The map Ben provides locates the position of the Temple with respect to the barracks.


Resolving "Kate's map"


On day 96 Kate, Jack, Juliet, Charlotte, and Faraday return to the beach camp from the Tempest. Sun is waiting for them. Sun, concerned about her unborn baby's welfare, decided that she and Jin should leave the beach camp and join Locke's group at the barracks. Sun or Jin do not know how to get to the barracks, so she asks Kate to draw her a quick map and tell her how to get there.

We don't hear all of Kate's directions, only part of the last sentence " ... and when you reach the stream, you pretty much go northwest for a day and half".
Juliet, knowing how dangerous this would be, prevents Sun from leaving the beach camp by telling Jin of Sun's affair, which was told to Juliet in confidence. Sun doesn't leave the beach camp and the map is never used.


Resolving the Tempest Map - Daniel Faraday's map

Map of the Tempest Used by Daniel Faraday and Charlotte to locate the Tempest


Method Used to Locate Items

The method that is used to locate items is simply a catalog/database of significant screen shots. Each mountain has a unique profile which is associated with its number in the above Reference numbers map. Significant screen shots are simply those screen shots that provide a clear view of a mountain's profile. Establishing the catalog/database of mountain profiles is time consuming, but necessary in locating items.

The location of items are usually identified by the position of surrounding known mountain profiles, although there are occasionally (very rare) background errors that have to be resolved.

Unknown locations can then be identified by comparing significant items in unknown locations against known cataloged screens shots.

In addition to the method used above: Logic, time, dialog, direction, maps, map markings, satellite phone maps, wall paintings of the island, Island photographs, distances, etc., are also used in trying to locate an item.

Locations can't be identified through subjective manners or because they 'feel right'. An accurate map must use an unbiased, objective method to locate items.

The accuracy of the map should increase as the show progresses as more material used to develop the map becomes available.

Blast Door Map

Quote from extras on Blu-Ray version of LOST:

"The Blast Door map was incredibly accurate. However, there were two spectrums to the map, and we only saw one. The question mark is the Pearl Station, and the various references to the monster and its travel patterns were 'pretty definitive.'"

We simply can't resolve the Blast Door Map without knowing what the second spectrum is. Although there is a lot of useful information that can be gleaned from the notes, and the map itself, until a full understanding of the Blast Door Map is available, we cannot use it for item location.

Resolving "Ben's Map"

Episode-" The Looking Glass"
Ben and the Others are located at a tent camp. Ben realizes that the Losties are traveling toward the Radio Tower while the ten people he sent to the beach camp have been ambushed and eventually killed.
Ben considers his best chance to stop the Losties from reaching the Radio Tower in their quest to contact the off shore freighter is to confront them.
Ben displays a map and marks a line from the Beach camp with the Radio tower using a red marker. He also marks a line from the Pascal Flats to the Radio Tower with the red marker.
The map Ben uses is somehow distorted. Ben's map is actually three sections of the Island's compete map, but without a logical configuration.
The way Ben's map is presented seems to be an illogical pattern of incongruous sections.
The following shows how Ben's Radio Tower map is properly aligned with respect the actual Island map.

Ben's Radio Tower Map Last Updated 04/10

Resolving 'Panoramic' View

In resolving the 'Panoramic view', the most important thing to realize is that what you assume to be true, may not be. This is typical for LOST.

What many people think is obvious about the 'Panoramic view' is that since there are two plumes of smoke, the right one is the tail section, and the other must be the fuselage/cockpit section.
Actually, smoke plume on the left is the plane's right engine. The planes left wing and right engine separate just after the tail section does. The right engine falls with a plume of smoke behind it. This is what most people mistakenly believe is the fuselage/cockpit.
The fuselage/cockpit with the right wing and left engine intact continue to fly forward and are above the view of the photo.

Photo A- As the tail section separates, the left wing and right engine also separate. The right engine develops a trail of smoke.

Photo B- Depicts the fuselage traveling forward with it's right wing intact. Also shown is
the beginning of the diverging plumes of smoke that will show the tail section and right engine on the panoramic view.

The following three drawing present a graphical representation of the landscape and flight 815 breakup. For mountain numbers see Post above this, Methods Used to Locate items.

Edit: Will repost 'Possible Flight Path of Oceanic Flight 815' (08-27-09)

Resolving 'Panoramic View' Last updated 3/10